Toronto Thumbs

INTERVIEW
Jonathan Coulton

Jonathan Coulton is an independent singer/songwriter whom you gamers may know as “that guy who wrote that song from Portal.” And while that particular tune did give him a lot of notoriety and exposure to those who hadn’t previously heard of him, he’s been making a living as a musician ever since leaving his last day job as a computer programmer.

As fun as the robotic GLaDOS-crooned “Still Alive” is, I’ve found that the real magic in his music is the sincerity of his voice, which is really obvious in songs like “First of May,” “Better,” and “Skullcrusher Mountain.” I happily dare anyone - robots excluded - to listen to one of his songs and not crack a smile. It’s just not possible.

His music is heard by loving fans around the world who can pay what they want (or can) to download his tunes (take that, record labels). Because of this, he’s been able to make a living at doing what he loves best: making music.

While internet stardom means that many of his fans have never seen him play live, us Torontonians are in for a real treat, since Coulton will be playing at the Lula Lounge in Toronto on July 9, 2008 with Paul and Storm. The show’s 19+ but if you’re underage, you can get in by bringing a guardian.

Coulton (or JoCo as we sometimes like to refer to him) spent some time chatting with me over the phone from his New York home/studio last week about music, video games, and music video games (among other things). Read on for the interview.

SH: You used to be a computer programmer, working on software and doing a lot of Microsoft SQL and Visual Basic.

JC: I sort of poke fun at that job … but it was actually not a boring job at all! There were great people that I worked with and it was one of those jobs where I was learning all the time. And as a company, we were learning all the time and always trying out new things.

Writing code is my second favourite thing to do (laughs).

Is it still something that you do?

Well, I don’t do any intense code writing anymore. I manage my website myself so I find myself doing certainly a lot of HTML and a little bit of PHP here and there. I set up the database that my store runs off of on the site, so you know I definitely use a lot of those skills still. Actually just as you called I was following a link that somebody sent me to this new Google API that sounds kind of cool. Yeah, it’s definitely really stimulating intellectual work.

Especially when something doesn’t work right but everything looks like it’s supposed to (laughs).

Yeah, it’s great. It’s like solving a puzzle.

So at what point did you decide to leave that job and try out the music thing? Did you have any previous experience playing an instrument or performing or songwriting?

Yeah I’ve been a guitarist and a singer for many, many years. I started writing songs in High School. It was always sort of a thing I did just as a hobby. And in the few years before I actually did leave that job I had started doing some more performing in front of people, just around New York. It wasn’t as though I was making any money that way, but it wasn’t like one day I decided to pick up a guitar and that that’s what I was going to do. It was in the back of my mind for most of my life that what I really wanted to do was be a musician.

Was writing humourous songs a goal of yours, or is that just something that sort of happened?

It’s not something that I actively chose. I just tend to think that way, or at least those are the things that inspire me. We were talking about how writing code was like solving a puzzle, and I find that songwriting is the same way. And particularly funny songwriting has that puzzle quality because you know where you want to get to, you just don’t know how to get there. And so it takes some experimentation in getting the pieces to fit in the right way.

So I write funny songs because funny things occur to me and also because it’s those things that really drive the creative process for me. It’s like, “I know there’s a joke here, so how am I going to get to that joke?”

When you were a programmer, before, were you a bit of a joker at your workplace?

Yeah, I guess so. I definitely am the type of person who leads with his sense of humour.

Are there any other humourous artists that you’re particularly into these days?

Well, I’ve for many years been really into and also heavily influenced by They Might Be Giants. They’re one of my favourite bands. They’re the ones that taught me that you can do things that are funny, but you can also be sad at the same time. And funny music doesn’t have to be just wacky. Funny music can actually be kind of deep. My favourite example of this is their song “James K. Polk,” which is about the US president. And it just sort of tells his story and there’s not really a single joke in there. It’s just this honest description of James K. Polk’s election and presidency and it raises his attempts to the status of “hero,” whereas most people don’t really know much about James K. Polk.

And really, there’s not a joke in there. It’s just “Here’s James K. Polk.” And that’s sort of the joke, that it’s a song without a joke. But it’s also sort of emotionally stirring in that you’re like, “Wow, James K. Polk was a good president!” (laughs)

And it’s that kind of stuff that they do that I think is so brilliant. They move you, for lack of a better, less-cheesy term.

That’s so true. Well speaking of presidents, you’ve got that song “W’s Duty” which was part of your Thing a Week, and that again is a song that is sort of funny but at the same time is sort of sad, as you were saying. I was just wondering how long it took you to source all those sound clips of George W. Bush for that song?

Not long. There’s actually a collection of them online. Right now I can’t remember the website but it’s a group of artists who took the time to go through all this audio of all his speeches and actually break it up into MP3s, line by line, and they named the MP3s by the words that he’s saying. So you can actually search the files for a particular word and find where he says stuff. It’s a wonderful resource and when I found it and I was like, “Oh god, I have to do something with this.” So it really didn’t take that long at all to find the stuff I needed because they had thoughtfully set it up that way.

(Laughs) One line I particularly like, which is repeated throughout the song is how he always says “duty” and the part where he says, “sometimes duty is hard.”

(Laughs) It’s sort of a running gag in my family and circle of friends. For a long time, I’ve found it funny in a very juvenile way to say “doodie” and pretend I’m talking other word “duty,” so it was a nice opportunity to flex that particular muscle.

Jonathan Coulton, cat owner.

So are you a dog owner by any chance?

(Laughs) I am not. No. I’m a cat owner.

Ah. I don’t think cat owners talk as much about their pets’ doodie as dog owners.

No. Well it goes in a box of sand, so you don’t have to look at it. You throw it away.

You mentioned They Might Be Giants, but are there any other artists that you’re listening to, either humourous or not?

I’ve become very enamoured by this band called Tally Hall, who are too young to be as talented as they are - and they make me angry (laughing). Their album is a collection of – well there are several songwriters in the group – but it’s very Beatles-y. I think they call it “Wonky Pop” and it is kind of slightly goofy but it’s really catchy stuff and it’s really well-arranged and produced. I’ve been listening to that like crazy for a long time.

I’m also a little late to the party, but I finally picked up a record by a guy named Mike Viola, who had a band called The Candy Butchers. The album I’m listening to is just him and a guitar in front of a live audience – just him and an acoustic guitar but all these really sad and beautiful songs in the singer/songwriter tradition, which I’m a great admirer of that kind of music and of somebody who can put a song together that stands on its own in that kind of environment.

In terms of your day-to-day stuff - you’re obviously a musician - do you play music every day?

Like on an instrument? Kind of. The guitars are just sitting here so if I’m at home and “working” – I don’t know if you could hear my air quotes there – but yeah, it’s very easy to pick up a guitar and start noodling around. Yesterday, for example, I was supposed to have a very productive day but instead I spent several hours playing all the songs from Billy Joel’s “Nylon Curtain.”

Billy Joel’s “The Nylon Curtain.”

I don’t know why. But I was just doing that all afternoon. I don’t know why. I love that album and for some reason it bubbled up in my head and I had to exorcise it.

His songs do get stuck in my head, too, and you kind of have to go with it.

He’s a talented songwriter. You heard it here first! (laughs)

On the subject of instruments, and you have a song in Rock Band (”Still Alive”), what do you think of games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band?

I think they’re pretty great. The wonderful thing about them is they make you feel like you’re playing – that sounds stupid, it sounds like I’m in a commercial for the game – they make you feel like you are playing in a rock band even if you don’t know how to play music. I’ve seen this first-hand with my friends and family. Some people will be over and we’ll drag out that game and people love it! Even people who are not good at games, and people who know nothing about playing instruments, once you show them the basics it really does give that feeling of a bunch of people working together to create something.

And I think that’s such an amazing thing, that they were able to achieve that. Then on the other end of the spectrum, I saw this YouTube video of a kid who was about 11 or 12 and he’s obviously spent hours and hours playing this game but he’s doing some song in Rock Band or Guitar Hero and it’s on the super advanced level and he’s just shredding! It’s like, there’s no way it takes less skill to do that than it does to actually play the guitar.

Yeah, because when you think of it, how long did he have to spend playing that same song to get to that level?

I know. Imagine if he had been working on a real guitar?

He’d probably be able to pull off the same thing. Actually I don’t know how to play a real guitar but I find that some songs I’d almost rather try playing on a real guitar because they are too hard in the game.

I know what you mean.

Because there’s only five keys but sometimes that one key is an E but then other times it could be an F or a D. So if you get into that mindset of certain notes being on certain keys, it can be a little bit of a hurdle.

And speaking as a guitarist, as I’m playing the game, occasionally something will light up the same parts of my brain that get lit up when I’m playing it on the guitar, you know what I mean? Like, “Oh! That actually felt like playing the guitar. That’s weird!”

Do you have both Guitar Hero and Rock Band?

No I just have Rock Band.

Is that something that you got for free because of your involvement with the game?

Yes (laughs). They were very kind to send me a copy. I live in this small apartment in Brooklyn, so it was the only way I could really get that game and not have my wife me angry at me – which is if somebody else sent it to me against my will (laughs).

Well you do play a lot of instruments. Now do you own all those kinds of instruments like a ukulele and all that kind of stuff?

I do. I have several guitars and banjos and ukuleles and accordions. I’m looking at my studio right now and it’s a total mess.

So I guess space would be sort of an issue for you, then?

It is. Actually shortly after I left my day job and started doing this we had to claim part of my kitchen as my office. We actually put up a wall so I could have this studio room. So in a very real sense, my profession has encroached upon my family life (laughs).

I’m not complaining, believe me. I feel like the luckiest guy in the world.

On the subject of video games, what was the first game you ever played?

Pong. I’m sure it was Pong. I remember playing the arcade version, as a matter of fact. And I remember my dad had the home version as well. I’ve been playing games as long as there have been games.

What would you say is your fondest game-related memory?

I miss arcades. My dad used to take me. Every weekend, we would go and he would get five dollars worth of quarters and we would just go machine to machine and play all the games. I miss that experience.

I know they still have arcades but there was something about that point in gaming when there was just – not every game had been done yet. So every time you went into the arcade there was something new and it was like, “Oh wow! You’re a kangaroo! You’re a boxing kangaroo, that’s awesome!” or “Ooh! It’s a one-on-one hockey game! That’s crazy!”

There was always something brand new and new genres being created all the time. So it was a very exciting time. Nowadays, I feel like they’re all – that everything costs two dollars.

I sound like an old man (adopting old man voice) “Now all the games cost two dollars!”

And you actually gotta ride on something like a jet ski or a snowboard, but it’s not as much fun as it used to be with just the simple quarter video games, you know?

I definitely agree. Did you ever play Gauntlet in the arcades?

Yes! I did. And in fact, when I was in college, there was a Gauntlet machine in one of the snack bars that we’d pump massive amounts of quarters into.

That’s one game that I love to play and I hate to play at the same time because it’s just – I can’t even imagine having to play that in the arcade anymore because I’d just be broke, I think.

I know. That was the brilliant thing about it. They made it very easy to put more quarters in. You always felt like you were about to obtain something.

Yeah, and then someone would shoot the food!

(Laughs) Oh yeah, “Elf needs food badly!”

Do you own any of the current game consoles?

Yes, the Xbox 360.

Are there any other games you’re playing other than Rock Band?

I just worked by way through Halo 3, finally got around to that. I’ve become really obsessed with Geometry Wars.

I saw you Tweeted something about that the other day.

I did. And speaking of old-style arcade games, this really feels like an old-style arcade game. Very simple controls and graphics and premise and you just fly around shooting stuff while everything tries to crash into you. But I find it addictive. I can’t stop playing. It’s that same kind of thing where I feel like I’m just about to have a breakthrough and my technique is about to improve.

But I know there’s nowhere to go (laughs). But I can’t stop playing!

Have you played the Pac-Man Championship Edition on LIVE Arcade?

No, I haven’t. Is there something special about the Championship Edition?

Yeah it takes the board and now it’s horizontal so it could fit a widescreen television. Pac-Man starts in the middle and of course it’s been given the neon pulsing light treatment and there’s techno playing in the background.

Of course.

It’s vaguely based off the music in the original – the siren wail. But luckily Buckner and Garcia are nowhere to be heard.

(laughs)

But you start off and there’s pellets on either side. You have to clear one side, then hit a token on the other side to replenish the side you just cleared. So every time you clear one side of the board, you have to go to the other side, clear that, and then go back again.

I see.

And every time a new display of pellets appear, they appear in a different formation. Sometimes you don’t even get power pellets and the ghosts will be chasing you and you have to outrun them like crazy. So basically it’s time-limited and the goal is to get as high a score as possible. And like Geometry Wars, I don’t know if you go online and check the leaderboards but the people who are the top scores it’s like, “what the hell do these people do all day?”

I know! The thing about Geometry Wars is I Tweeted about this extended fantasy I have about becoming the best Geometry Wars player in the world and you know the amazing thing about having the leaderboard is you can actually see who the best Geometry Wars player in the world is.

And I’m ranked like 25 thousand or something like that. So I have a ways to go, but I feel like it’s attainable, you know? It’s only a couple hundred thousand more points and I’ll jump in order of magnitude!

(laughs) Ah, that’s crazy talk, I know.

Do you have any other favourite games for the Xbox 360?

Well of course, I’m not just saying this because I’m affiliated with them, but The Orange Box is an amazing collection of games. I’ve always loved the Half-Life series. And playing Portal – Portal is such a great game. I was so thrilled to work on that because it was one of those opportunities where it wasn’t just about geek cred, but it was about being a part of this thing that I knew was going to be awesome.

I actually played the first Half-Life years ago when it was first out but I had fallen behind, so it was nice to get that collection and be able to follow up a little bit.

What else? I like Bioshock, and Call of Duty 4 is pretty great. Those are the ones that loom pretty large. I haven’t gotten Grand Theft Auto 4 yet, but that’s next on my list.

Is collaborating with game developers something that interests you? Is it something you foresee yourself doing again in the future?

Yeah, if the right project came up. I’m not that interested in writing scores, mostly because I feel it’s not my skill set. The nice thing about Portal was that I got to write a song with lyrics, sung by a character. And I think that’s where my strengths are as a songwriter. So yeah, if something else like that came up, I’d love to do it again. It was a really great experience working with that and we’re all very proud of what came out of it.

Yeah I remember hearing that one of your songs was going to be in the game, and I avoided spoilers about it. So when I was playing through it I kept thinking, “Where is this song?” until I got to the end and realized, “Oh, this is probably the song.”

(Laughs) Probably, it. It must have been hard avoiding all those spoilers.

Yeah, but you know what? People would reference things like “This was a triumph” and I’d be like, “what the hell are they talking about?” because without hearing the song, I had no idea.

Right.

So are there other artists you’d like to collaborate with?

I should be prepared for this question because people ask it frequently… But yeah. I’d love to collaborate with anybody or any of the musicians that I think are awesome. For me, I still have a hard time thinking of myself as a musician (laughs).

You know, They Might Be Giants, they’re a real rock band. They’re actual famous people. I feel like, “they wouldn’t want to collaborate with me!”

It sounds lame when I put it that way, but it’s true. I’d be thrilled to collaborate with them but it’s not like I foresee that happening anytime soon. They’ve already got collaborators – each other (laughs).

What about solo artists? Are there any solo artists that you’ve picked stuff up from and thought, “oh, that’s kind of cool?”

Ben Folds is a guy who comes to mind as being a really strong, single-voice songwriting machine. There’s a guy who actually a friend of mine before I was a fan of his music, but I’m actually a huge fan of his music. His name is Jim Boggia and he’s also, like Mike Viola, this classic singer-songwriter guy. Amazing guitarist, beautiful voice, and he has a gift for writing songs you feel you’ve heard somewhere. And I steal from him, whether knowingly or not (laughs).

More than once, I’ve finished a song and am like, “What? Oh! That melody and chord change is from this song!”

Have you ever had to scrap a song because it was too much like something else?

That has happened, usually early on in the process. I’m like, “Oh, this is awesome. Oh… It’s awesome because it’s a Beatles song!”

(Laughs) It’s happened but it usually doesn’t go too far along. But definitely I’ve had the moment where the song is done, I’ve recorded it, I’ve released it. And then I have the moment where I go, “Oh, that chord change is from here.” But I think that’s pretty common. I think that’s how we all write songs. Every little bit is from somewhere, you know.

Yeah, it’s all based on experiences, on what you’ve heard and that kind of stuff. You drop a lot of cultural references in your songs and in your song “Better” you reference both Darth Vader and Optimus Prime. So are you a fan of Star Wars and Transformers?

Yes, I’m a – well to call myself a Star Wars “fan” feels incomplete in some way. Star Wars has been a part of my brain as long as I can remember. Transformers, I was less into when it was happening but I saw the movie and actually thought it was pretty awesome. But yeah, that stuff – I grew up on Star Wars. It was probably one of the first movies I ever saw in the theatre, and like many people of my generation it seems almost impossible to think of life without it.

What did you think of the prequels?

Um… They weren’t good (laughs). I don’t know. There’s not a lot to say about them that hasn’t already been said. It was sad. Because of course, we were all waiting and waiting and waiting. We knew there were nine movies, you know. And then… here they are and they’re (groans) not so good.

Yeah I waited in line for a few hours for that first one, and because it was a Star Wars movie in a theatre, I ended up seeing the Phantom Menace about 11 times. Now when I think about it, I get a little sad inside.

(laughs) Yeah, I know!

I don’t know if you were ever a fan of Mystery Science Theater 3000

Oh yes!

Have you followed the careers of Joel Hodgson and Mike Nelson after that, because Mike’s doing this thing called RiffTrax.

Ah, yes, I’m familiar.

Yeah I just got the RiffTrax to the three prequels and watched those. And I thought the movies were kind of bad before and forgave a lot. But when you’ve got them ripping these movies to shreds while you’re watching them… they pick things out that you don’t notice.

Haha, I know!

You’re playing Toronto in July!

That’s right.

Have you ever been here before?

I haven’t been to Toronto before and never played there. I’m really looking forward to it. There are a number of cities in the last few years and it’s been all about playing in cities for the first time for me, and Toronto promises to be a pretty big show as far as I can tell. There’s a large fanbase so I’m really excited about it.

Cool. Are you looking forward to doing anything while in the city?

You know, the sad thing about being a travelling musician – here we go, cue the violin – I go to all these places but it’s like, I get there with enough time to eat lunch, go to the venue and sound check, do the show, and I leave the next morning for the next city. So I never have as much time as I would like to hang out and see the place but I always get these drive-by views of the city. But I hear Toronto is really nice!

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