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KEEPING RHYTHM
Q&A with Masaya Matsuura

Since its creation, Japanese developer NanaOn-Sha has never stopped pursuing the development of innovative games. But given the company’s significant contribution to the original PlayStation, the extended absence of their work from the North American market has left a considerable void.

The upcoming release of Major Minor’s Majestic March represents not just an important release for the Wii, but also an opportunity for an evolved thesis on the music game from the very people who pioneered it. Many will instantly recognize the collaboration of music game pioneer Masaya Matsuura and artist Rodney Greenblat - their work on Parappa the Rapper having established the rhythm genre and created a lasting visual impression. And considering how their work brought so many casual gamers to the PSOne, the reaction of the Wii’s often cited casual market might prove every bit as interesting as the game itself.

Now what you may not know is that I keep a list tacked to my refrigerator. It’s a short collection of names, people working within the games industry that I have a running list of questions for should the opportunity ever arise. Another thing you may not know is that I was given my name because my father happened to know a very lucky man named Jamie, and he had hoped to pass that luck onto me.

And while the opportunity to pose some of my questions to Masaya Matsuura certainly speaks to a spirit of luck, my junior journalist efforts were also greatly aided by NanaOn-Sha’s Dewi Tanner, who was of great assistance in making the following possible.

Jamie Love: You’ve stated that,

It’s a statement that deeply interests me. As a writer, I have aspirations for creating works of fiction. And yet the standard method of the novel always left me feeling a void, or feeling disconnected to the world around me. As I came to see videogames as the convergence of all previous forms of artistic expression, it seemed vital to engage this medium and find new ways to tell stories within it. So I’m deeply curious as to whether this also keeps you involved in the industry as opposed to returning to any sort of singular identity as purely a musician?

Masaya Matsuura: As I said it was accordingly an extension of my career as a musician, I’ve never thought that I’ve been “staying” in the video game industry. However the video game industry is currently the only industry which keeps challenging me to find brand new and multiple ways of expression like the music industry used to be. There are still a lot of things that I can do, that I want to do and that I should do in this exciting industry as an extended musician. But I always take time out as much as possible to compose music which is unconcerned with video games, practice instruments and listen to other musician’s works. Although I don’t even know which one is actually a sideline lol!

JL: You’ve previously spoken about the success of the Guitar Hero franchise, stating that,

As the franchise has grown, a big demand from gamers has been increasing the amount of licensed music, and adding to authenticity by eliminating cover tracks and including the original bands. It leaves me wondering if Guitar Hero and/or Rock Band are games about music, or about achieving a very specific experience through music. Do you feel that these games will open up opportunities for musicians to work and compliment games, potentially inspiring new opportunities for music in gaming. Or is this a situation where the established convention of the game experience has stagnated potential innovations some might have initially envisioned?

MM: The “Music” you define (tangible and/or intangible) refers to recorded materials like CD or mp3, but they are nothing but a part of an unknown thing called “Music.” I guess there is not much difference between “games about music” and “games about achieving a very specific experience through music” when you wholly think about it. It doesn’t really matter. I keep on saying that the rhythm game is just the tip of a boundless developing genre known as the “Music game.” I believe one of my missions is to open up this unexplored field. I think a lot of musicians are surprisingly conservative from my experience. It takes further advancement and exploitation to find a paradigm for the musical expressions of music games.

JL: You’ve also said that,

The nature of those words obviously searches for large shifts in what gaming and music can become together. And yet, reading that, I immediately began thinking of the WipEout franchise. Specifically thinking of WipEout XL, it was perhaps the first game I played where I couldn’t separate the game from the soundtrack. The futuristic aesthetics of the game emerged from the culture of the music presented, and all the social aspects attached to that. Because I came to consider it a perfect example of a complimentary relationship between music and gaming, I wanted to ask if you were familiar at all with that title or the series?

MM - I’ve played it but I’m not really familiar with it. I think that the game is well-integrated but I’m afraid I’m not that interested in techno music.

JL: The idea of that complimentary relationship is obviously a tricky subject. The theme to The Legend of Zelda for instance, always conjures memories of playing the game for me, much in the same way a certain song reminds someone of a first kiss perhaps. Would you be willing to comment on the idea of musical memory and help separate it from this idea of music and gaming as a complimentary experience?

MM - I think it’s possible to separate them. Since we play video games with music, which used to be just listened to, if you get more memories, the complimentary relationship would change somehow. I guess many people believe particular music and memories can’t be separated, but it’s not true. They just don’t want to do that. They just want to feel nostalgia. Also there is no reason for them to “over write” their memory unless they hear the same music in different games and get crazy about it.

I always think about music at the same time when I develop a game concept. Music is already there when the game concept completes. This is why the images of the game don’t really pop up in my mind when I hear the music. Since I’ve gotten used to listening to music like that I can always separate them easily, even when the music is composed by someone else, I always try not to attach images with music. Enjoying the whole thing with music and listening to music in the contents are totally different things to me.

This is just an aside, my piano teacher had played a music called “Taboo,” which used to be played for the scene of a stripper on a TV comedy show every week, at a piano recital. I burst out laughing with all the other kids, but when I asked the teacher why he played it he said that he wanted to teach us that we shouldn’t judge the quality of music from stereotyped information. I really appreciate this idea. Also one of the musicians I respect, Joe Zawinul, said the same thing about an issue that indicates use of distinctive scale and phrase of ethnic music. I believe it is an important matter as a professional musician.

JL: Vib-Ribbon allowed the structure of a game to be built from music, but what about the reverse? What thought have you given since then to how the actions of a player might create music in a more profound sense?

MM - What an interesting topic! Let me think about it lol!

JL: Among the many aspects of music and gaming you’ve address, you’ve said that,

I’ve wondered how this could apply to the product of videogames. Sonic the Hedgehog for instance, is of course owned by Sega, and the direction of the franchise over the last few years has been heavily criticized by gamers and game media. Certainly no title can please everyone, but when reading through these complaints, it is obvious that the sometimes vehement response is rooted in the idea that many people have grown-up with this character and identify it with their fondest gaming memories. There’s a strong emotional attachment, and a sense that the character isn’t just a product to be owned by any one company, belonging just as much to the community that embraced and supported it. Parappa the Rapper is another character that many hold a strong attachment to, and as the co-creator, I’m interested in your thoughts about such issues.

MM - We should talk about cultural values and proprietary values separately. Nowadays, nobody really has the idea that “Copies” are worse than the “Original” anymore. When I think about that, it is no wonder that new ways of thinking about possession will be eventually spreading and changing. When, for example, we have a million seller game, it is difficult for us to decide if there is only one main character, or a million of them, but for now we should appreciate that both assumptions can be held as valid.

I think companies and/or producers have a tough mission to bring imaginary characters to life both culturally and proprietarily. Also the imaginary character will doubtless become increasingly realistic and tangible in the near future. Then we will be forced to rethink how we treat them once again.

JL: NanaOn-Sha’s current project is Major Minor’s Majestic March. So far we’ve been told that the game involves the player controlling the tempo of musical performances by waving the Wii-mote like a baton to lead a marching band. You’ve said the player will be able to even,

What was it specifically about the Wii that led to the development of this title? I’m assuming that such a game could have existed prior, of course requiring a special peripheral, such as Sega’s Samba De Amigo on the Dreamcast for instance.

MM - You don’t need anything except a Wii Remote which means that there is no need for any special peripheral. The difficult thing when we plan a game for Wii is that with any action using a Wii Remote, the user’s play has to be the same as the action they actually do in their daily life; otherwise it wouldn’t be realistic for them. On the other hand, if you only focus on that issue, your creativity would be limited! I had a hard time when planning this title trying to overcome this issue. I’m sure that you will see the inherent originality of the game as soon as you play it!

JL: You’ve mentioned the idea of Postural Echo before, that two friends that talk informally usually adopt similar body postures, not as a deliberate act but as a unconscious bodily display of companionship. Will Major Minor’s Majestic March have a Postural Echo effect on players? Can a game that involves physical participation reliably create an expected outcome from the player?

MM - The idea of Postural Echo is featured in many ways in the game Major Minor’s Majestic March. Its quality is much higher than it is in PaRappa. You can play it and discover yourself which points reflect the idea of Postural Echo if you are interested. You can enjoy the game in a different way.

JL: In speaking about the idea of Positive Emergence you’ve said,

Obviously that type of game-play is heavily represented in the industry at present. I’d like to ask if there are any examples of games you’ve recently experienced that give you hope that this might not always be the dominant design standard?

MM - I thought that “Flower” was great. When viewed strictly as an interactive experience it isn’t so different from a flight simulator; but the charm of Flower is how it takes something previously unassociated with games but freely encourages us using delicate metaphors into an experience that intoxicates our time spent with it.

PS3 titles “Afrika” (It wasn’t as interesting as I expected.),  “Aquanaut’s Holiday” (It was more fun than I thought.), “Flow” (I know it’s a bit old) and the Wii title “Let’s tap” (I haven’t even played it yet.) look like more examples. Of course, I can confidently say that Major Minor’s Majestic March is one of them!

JL: Despite being labeled the “father” of the rhythm genre, I don’t believe I’ve ever heard anyone ask for your thoughts on that genre today. Obviously your work inspired a great deal of similar games from other developers. Are rhythm games specifically a niche offset of the music game trend, or do titles like Patapon, either through innovation or the merging of game styles, demonstrate that the genre still has growth potential?

MM - I see… That’s strange. I’ve done interviews on this subject so many times. I guess the press that interviewed me mustn’t have been so popular. I’ve often talked about my mission and the future of the music game.

*Editor’s Note and Jamie’s lesson of the day - if you want to know something directly, you should probably just ask it. Yet what stuck out for me with this last question is that I’ve been separating the rhythm genre from the music game genre rather than viewing it as one larger dynamic in gaming.

Posted in Features, Interviews, Music, Wii |