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	<title>Comments on: At The Edge of the World The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask</title>
	<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/</link>
	<description>By Canadian Gamers</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 01:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hylian Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2914</link>
		<dc:creator>Hylian Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 05:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2914</guid>
		<description>"But it takes a more thoughtful mind to realize that there are no definitive answers to be had. Yet there is much to be gained from having the discussion in the first place."

Thank you for that quote. I've spent a few years trying to raise the level of discourse surrounding Majora's Mask. For too long all it seemed people would talk about were the Fierce Deity and whether Termina is an alternate universe. 

A lot of the time people say I'm looking too deeply, that the designers never intended the stuff I see in the game. I hate when people try to put an end to the discussion that way. The point isn't whether or not we're right so much as it is what we can learn by studying the game and its incredible themes and messages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But it takes a more thoughtful mind to realize that there are no definitive answers to be had. Yet there is much to be gained from having the discussion in the first place.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thank you for that quote. I&#8217;ve spent a few years trying to raise the level of discourse surrounding Majora&#8217;s Mask. For too long all it seemed people would talk about were the Fierce Deity and whether Termina is an alternate universe. </p>
<p>A lot of the time people say I&#8217;m looking too deeply, that the designers never intended the stuff I see in the game. I hate when people try to put an end to the discussion that way. The point isn&#8217;t whether or not we&#8217;re right so much as it is what we can learn by studying the game and its incredible themes and messages.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Love</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2828</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 18:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2828</guid>
		<description>@Maniac - You're absolutely right about the organic nature of the process, including links and more importantly comments from readers - which deserve far more attention and respect than they've previously gotten. 

I've thought quite a bit about the type of depository you've mentioned. On one hand I fear any of these articles being lost not only to time, but to the collapse of sites overtime. But it's also very hard to remove something from its organic evolution and place it in a more sterile environment, even with the best intentions - doubly hard to decide which writers have their work placed in such a database and which ones don't. 

However, the more net savvy we become, the more we might appreciate the way a piece of writing at one site might lead to a dozen others in a natural state. I don't have anything close to a definitive answer on it all, and it merits much more thought and discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Maniac - You&#8217;re absolutely right about the organic nature of the process, including links and more importantly comments from readers - which deserve far more attention and respect than they&#8217;ve previously gotten. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve thought quite a bit about the type of depository you&#8217;ve mentioned. On one hand I fear any of these articles being lost not only to time, but to the collapse of sites overtime. But it&#8217;s also very hard to remove something from its organic evolution and place it in a more sterile environment, even with the best intentions - doubly hard to decide which writers have their work placed in such a database and which ones don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>However, the more net savvy we become, the more we might appreciate the way a piece of writing at one site might lead to a dozen others in a natural state. I don&#8217;t have anything close to a definitive answer on it all, and it merits much more thought and discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Maniac</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2822</link>
		<dc:creator>Maniac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 06:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2822</guid>
		<description>@Jamie

I've actually been spending a lot of time thinking about achademia and how it has formed as a culture within a sphere of essays, responses and so forth.  

It really happens in that sort of organic space for each industry, art, science or what have you, and video games should be no exception.  After spending so many hours in class, doing readings and writing essays for my BA, I've been tempted to write short essays myself but I may have to wait until after graduation.

I guess what I'd like to see until then is a sort of reservoir or database where various essay-like articles about the industry could be found.  I mean, its nice to have links between sites, but these articles tend to be lost when they are forced off of the main page of their respective sites.  Any chance we could get some sort of site together to that effect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jamie</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve actually been spending a lot of time thinking about achademia and how it has formed as a culture within a sphere of essays, responses and so forth.  </p>
<p>It really happens in that sort of organic space for each industry, art, science or what have you, and video games should be no exception.  After spending so many hours in class, doing readings and writing essays for my BA, I&#8217;ve been tempted to write short essays myself but I may have to wait until after graduation.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;d like to see until then is a sort of reservoir or database where various essay-like articles about the industry could be found.  I mean, its nice to have links between sites, but these articles tend to be lost when they are forced off of the main page of their respective sites.  Any chance we could get some sort of site together to that effect?</p>
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		<title>By: Maniac</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2821</link>
		<dc:creator>Maniac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 06:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2821</guid>
		<description>@AntonVonUber

I don't think that Link is necessarily "all-pure".  Heroic certainly, but for the most part his private thoughts are largely removed from the narrative.  Like Mario, he's more of a place-holder than a person.  If a gamer projects particular values onto the character, then they become true for that gamer.  In my case, I play Link like a lunatic and a thief.  I barge into people's homes, smash their pots and take the money I find inside.

They bring this problem up in OOT and WW.  OOT has a scene where a resident questions why you just stormed into their house uninvited (Kakariko village) and WW has a delightful segment in the rich man's home where he demands you return the money you stole from breaking his pots.

Do these acts make him a villain?  No.  But they certainly don't make Link out to be a perfect white knight either.  I'd call petty theft and breaking and entering to be a moral shade of grey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@AntonVonUber</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that Link is necessarily &#8220;all-pure&#8221;.  Heroic certainly, but for the most part his private thoughts are largely removed from the narrative.  Like Mario, he&#8217;s more of a place-holder than a person.  If a gamer projects particular values onto the character, then they become true for that gamer.  In my case, I play Link like a lunatic and a thief.  I barge into people&#8217;s homes, smash their pots and take the money I find inside.</p>
<p>They bring this problem up in OOT and WW.  OOT has a scene where a resident questions why you just stormed into their house uninvited (Kakariko village) and WW has a delightful segment in the rich man&#8217;s home where he demands you return the money you stole from breaking his pots.</p>
<p>Do these acts make him a villain?  No.  But they certainly don&#8217;t make Link out to be a perfect white knight either.  I&#8217;d call petty theft and breaking and entering to be a moral shade of grey.</p>
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		<title>By: AntonVonUber</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2814</link>
		<dc:creator>AntonVonUber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:06:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2814</guid>
		<description>Hmmm... if only to change the premise of saving Zelda, maybe there could be a multiple-ending approach to a Zelda series where the player has to make the choice of saving Zelda or saving a larger community?  That may be interesting, though would lead to the all-pure Link having moral baggage.  He's intended to be the perfect image of all that is 'good' versus Ganon's 'evil'.  I don't think a LoZ game has room for moral ambiguity (ala KoTOR, Fable, or Fallout 3) and developing your character for good or evil, though it could be interesting.  Or, then again maybe it'll turn out like Fable -- wouldn't it be interesting to play as Dark Link though and pillage a village?  Maybe aid Ganondorf in defeating Zelda and Link and then finally defeat Ganondorf and assume your Dark Throne?  Hmmm... indie developers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230; if only to change the premise of saving Zelda, maybe there could be a multiple-ending approach to a Zelda series where the player has to make the choice of saving Zelda or saving a larger community?  That may be interesting, though would lead to the all-pure Link having moral baggage.  He&#8217;s intended to be the perfect image of all that is &#8216;good&#8217; versus Ganon&#8217;s &#8216;evil&#8217;.  I don&#8217;t think a LoZ game has room for moral ambiguity (ala KoTOR, Fable, or Fallout 3) and developing your character for good or evil, though it could be interesting.  Or, then again maybe it&#8217;ll turn out like Fable &#8212; wouldn&#8217;t it be interesting to play as Dark Link though and pillage a village?  Maybe aid Ganondorf in defeating Zelda and Link and then finally defeat Ganondorf and assume your Dark Throne?  Hmmm&#8230; indie developers?</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Love</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2813</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2813</guid>
		<description>@Willozap - Thank-you, very much. If we can accomplish even half of that, then it was all worth the effort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Willozap - Thank-you, very much. If we can accomplish even half of that, then it was all worth the effort.</p>
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		<title>By: Willozap</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2804</link>
		<dc:creator>Willozap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 05:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2804</guid>
		<description>The thing that struck me about this article is that comment of a few years ago of Roger Ebert (I think) that there is no true video game criticism on a par with that afforded literature and film.

This essay is exactly the kind of essay writing that video game journalism needs - a New York Review of Books equivalent for video games.  

So well done Jamie, you've just proved to me that truly thoughtful criticism of game material exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that struck me about this article is that comment of a few years ago of Roger Ebert (I think) that there is no true video game criticism on a par with that afforded literature and film.</p>
<p>This essay is exactly the kind of essay writing that video game journalism needs - a New York Review of Books equivalent for video games.  </p>
<p>So well done Jamie, you&#8217;ve just proved to me that truly thoughtful criticism of game material exists.</p>
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		<title>By: GoNintendo &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More Zelda than you can shake an Octorok at- What are you waiting for?</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2801</link>
		<dc:creator>GoNintendo &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More Zelda than you can shake an Octorok at- What are you waiting for?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 03:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2801</guid>
		<description>[...] At the edge of the world - Majora&#8217;s Mask [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] At the edge of the world - Majora&#8217;s Mask [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Love</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2787</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2787</guid>
		<description>@H - I absolutely believe you about a higher sci-fi objective, which is very evident in the broader success of a series like BSG. A line about Sci-fi that remained with me for a long time was that, "Great Science-Fiction challenges us to think harder about our own world."

The idea of retelling is a continually exciting one as well. On one hand it is comparable to the DJ's ability to remix new from old, and also it's important to consider the ways of seeing we bring to each different telling as well. In fact just the various and different comments that have spawned in response to Greg's piece really make me appreciate how many different ways there are to see a particular story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@H - I absolutely believe you about a higher sci-fi objective, which is very evident in the broader success of a series like BSG. A line about Sci-fi that remained with me for a long time was that, &#8220;Great Science-Fiction challenges us to think harder about our own world.&#8221;</p>
<p>The idea of retelling is a continually exciting one as well. On one hand it is comparable to the DJ&#8217;s ability to remix new from old, and also it&#8217;s important to consider the ways of seeing we bring to each different telling as well. In fact just the various and different comments that have spawned in response to Greg&#8217;s piece really make me appreciate how many different ways there are to see a particular story.</p>
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		<title>By: H</title>
		<link>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2786</link>
		<dc:creator>H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 03:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.torontothumbs.com/2009/03/29/at-the-edge-of-the-world-the-legend-of-zelda-majora%e2%80%99s-mask/#comment-2786</guid>
		<description>There is an ongoing discussion about this particularly since the advent of postmodernism. Nintendo itself aside, I think there's a lot that could be done with Link and his world, but maybe there's more that could be done with different characters not of this archetypal mold. The genre of a LoZ game with a serious narrative break might further be easier with a genre shift, but would that cease to be a LoZ game? Likewise if Nintendo made a Mario FPS they would probably receive letterbombs. So how many stories are there in the world? In terms of basic elements very few, but in different tellings probably infinite. So a mature Zelda game in my opinion would perhaps require a complex narrative, and either a different premise to 'save Zelda' or the same premise with a complication; say something dark or difficult happens as a result. It would also need to be told well, but we know Nintendo can do that. The best fantasy and scifi deals with real issues through the fantasy- read Dianna Wynne-Jones if you don't believe me. This nonsense about heroes and forces of evil is a sheer hallucination, the most fantastical element of all, and extremely boring when you're force-fed it by maintstream games and hollywood all day long</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is an ongoing discussion about this particularly since the advent of postmodernism. Nintendo itself aside, I think there&#8217;s a lot that could be done with Link and his world, but maybe there&#8217;s more that could be done with different characters not of this archetypal mold. The genre of a LoZ game with a serious narrative break might further be easier with a genre shift, but would that cease to be a LoZ game? Likewise if Nintendo made a Mario FPS they would probably receive letterbombs. So how many stories are there in the world? In terms of basic elements very few, but in different tellings probably infinite. So a mature Zelda game in my opinion would perhaps require a complex narrative, and either a different premise to &#8217;save Zelda&#8217; or the same premise with a complication; say something dark or difficult happens as a result. It would also need to be told well, but we know Nintendo can do that. The best fantasy and scifi deals with real issues through the fantasy- read Dianna Wynne-Jones if you don&#8217;t believe me. This nonsense about heroes and forces of evil is a sheer hallucination, the most fantastical element of all, and extremely boring when you&#8217;re force-fed it by maintstream games and hollywood all day long</p>
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